She can’t become guru
Audio link here http://seminary.bhaktivedantaacademy.com/content/uploads/2015/06/Why_can_women_be_SIksa-Guru_but_not_Diksa-Guru.mp3
Devotee: I would like to ask a question regarding the previous part of the study … Suniti being the siksha guru of Dhruva maharaj, and it says in the purport of the verse 32 According to Sastric injuctions there is no difference between siksha guru and diskha guru. The only difference is later the Siksha guru later on becomes diskha guru. Suniti however being a woman … and specifically his… mother could not become Dhruva maharajs Disha guru. Why is that?
BVPS: See, because you are dealing with the diksha guru is formal relationship. Shiksha is… doesnt have that formality. So since the feminine nature.. you are dealing with the sense of possession, then it fits with Siksha guru but not with diksha guru. Because even though one would think it’s the other way, the problem is, because of the sense of possession, then you expect them to do everything how you say based on your emotions, not based on your instruction. You know what I’m saying? The mother may be giving good instruction or not, or know what instruction to give or not, but she expects her child to behave in a particular way because they are her child. You understand? So you can’t have that in a Diksha relationship. The point is: It’s based on siskha. But if formalized, that instruction has to be followed. But what’s happening here is: it’s not about the instruction. One can say, No, it’s about the instruction. No, but then it’s about them following the instruction. You understand? So that feminine aspect will come into it. And it’s just not supposed to be there. Because then it turns something spiritual into this whole emotional thing and the control and you know care and you know what im saying? So thats the whole thing. So that can be applied onto the husband, onto the family members, onto the children. You know onto your house, onto your community…But you cant do that on the spiritual platform. So thats why then women dont become diksha gurus. That’s the basic reason. You know, I mean then theres so many details behind that. Just the strength required to do it. And a women only whos protected can do that. You know. So the point is is, women gets the strength when she is in a protected environment she becomes very strong, very powerful, outgoing and that. If that is lacking, she becomes weak. So when she becomes weak, …the protective … becomes nasty. So then if you combine that with the need that her identity is based on that and if you dont follow what she says, you doubt it. Then it puts into question her postion, her existence, her identity as the diksha guru. So that’s gonna create so much mental turmoil and it will about her. So thats the whole point. …..one who’s a diksha guru, its about what works for the disciple. But if the woman is the guru, because of the sense of possession, its always about her. So its just opposite. Its just incompatible. Now as a siksha guru, it could work. Why is that? Because the siksha doesn’t have that sense of possession. So they follow or not follow, it’s one of those.. they follow, you have a good relation; you dont follow, then ‘hey, what to do’. Just like the grandparents, they will always tell you good advice. Right? And you take it, great! If you dont, its kinda like, ‘hey, it’s my child’s problem, not my problem’. Right? Because they are the child of their child. So if they are going off in the wrong direction, that’s their child’s business, to take care of. They are just trying to help. So that’s why the siksha position is the strongest. So the difficulty is: is in the contemporary environment, is due to the neophyte mentality, there isn’t a proper respect for siksha guru. Because to have respect for the siksha guru, means you have to have respect for the principle of authority. And that knowledge is the highest. Does that make sense? But in an environment where authority issues is basically kinda standard and accepted as thats normal. And if you accept authority, there is something wrong with you, or you are sentimental. Right? And on top of that, when you add it to the contemporary social values from the platform of Pranamoy, you know from Artha, that these things are of importance. Then you could see is that, that undermines the whole position of what siksha guru represents and what needs to be there. So, Neophyte mentality especially when it has the aspect of the modern contemporary pranamoy values, then you cant establish Siksha gurus. So only Diksha. Because then there is, seemingly Diksha is like a ritual. So there is that formal external relationship. Siksha guru is based not on external, its based on the more subtle. Its on the knowledge, on the metaphysical. Right? But the Diksha… then the Neophyte takes it that its based on the external. You know, just like you have any kind of ritual, there is a connection there by the external. When you have a marriage, you are connecting the external.Right? You are not connecting the souls. They are just agreeing to work together. Its the external you are connecting.
So then that
1. Makes it strong for the neophyte,
2. Makes it weak for them to go beyond that and understand the position of siksha guru.
Because if Siksha guru is respected, that means all senior vaishnavas, especially those who are more close to the giving instructions would be on that same platform of the Diksha guru. Right? Then you wouldn’t have the need for trying to bring out this thing based on social values. It’s not based on spiritual values. No one should fool themselves on this. It’s based purely on social values, modern social values, that the women should be diksha gurus. You know what I’m saying.
The point is right here Prabhupada is saying it is according to sashtra. So that’s just the way it is. You know I am saying? But diksha guru is the highest in the formal. But that’s within pancharatra but higher than pancharatra is bhagavat. Bhagavat just functions on siksha. You understand? So that’s the whole thing, we have we turn everything upside down due to mode of ignorance. So actually someone being a siksha guru based on the bhagavat principle that’s technically a higher position but by formality they are not, right? In the formal environment they are not. So you have to balance these things. And balance is not of the fortes of contemporary society. It just doesn’t know how. It doesn’t know what the elements are. Because to balance you have to know where your hands are, you have to know those funny little balls you are juggling, you have to know the rhythm, you have to know all those things, you know I’m saying? You have to know but the problem is you can’t even define these things how do you get people…people don’t what are diksha and siksha guru and how …the diksha formulate and what are the technical points of initiation? What’s the masculine principle and the feminine principle? What is Bhagavat, pancaratrik, vedic? How’re their relationships? All those things. If you can define that then you can discuss balance. But what we are dealing with is: It’s thrown out of balance because you are taking a modern social phenomenon and trying to make that as a spiritual, how do you say, spiritual vanguard. What it actually is not. It’s just a social…you know. It’s a social issue so that people have enough bile to digest lunch, you know, that is basically what it’s benefit is. You know I am saying? So the thing is that the diksha guru is not just recommended. They say,
This other [modern] one is not a solution. You know, the men they deal nastily with the ladies. They say mataji with a cringe on their lips. So now the men say Prabhu instead of mataji. Now it solves the whole problem? You know. How does that work? You can say Prabhuuuu with a cringe on your lip also. Plus you got the ‘bhuuu’ so you can spit at the same time, you know. You call ‘matajiii’ there is not chance to spit (laughter in background) you got to wait.’
‘But no, there are some examples in lines in history’. But who cares if Prabhupada says, ‘it is not’ and he is quoting from shashtra. Who cares[about those examples that people may bring out]?
Because if I say, let’s say, there is another modern issue [for which] I have examples from history, right? And if it goes against the modern principle, then what would be the point? [The people will say,]
‘Well, Prabhupada does not talk about it so we don’t we don’t accept it’.
But if Prabhupada does talk about it and you find an example to oppose it and it supports the modern [values] and it supports the modern, then it is something to discuss – so this is politics. This not philosophy. This is not spiritual. It’s just down right, you can say, ‘equal opportunities’. What does it mean? You know I’m saying? The difficulty is that these aren’t defined. And if you push the issue then you just get emotional blowup which is how a woman deals with these things. In another words, if a woman wants something but she knows it’s logically wrong. As soon as you logically approach it then she immediately becomes angry and stops talking and stuff like that the natural defense. You know crying this and that. You know she just brings it back to her so then you have to drop it, ‘ohh ohh no no no’ Like that. That is just the way it works. And we are going to accept that is how we are going to deal with such an important philosophical point? That shashtra doesn’t…That’s why shashtra doesn’t support it. It is very simple. It is very straight forward, you know.
And people may say this and that and we are not this body and so many things. Yes we are not the body but the body is the body. You have to understand that I’m not the body but the body is the body and it has a nature and it functions according to that nature. No ‘ifs’. No ‘ands’ and no ‘buts’.
Like the car is sitting there and it’s a car but when I get in it I am the soul but I am separate from the car. Now the car can do anything? How does that work? It’s only a car when I am not in the car when I get in the car now the car can be anything, the sky is the limit, you know. What do u mean? It’s still a car. So whether there is a soul in the body or soul is not in the body. Whether the soul identifies with the body or does not identify with the body. The body is still the body. It just straight forward logical facts. So, it not about a problem here. Why put women in a position that is not favorable for them as a woman
‘you are talking about insanity’
‘everyone is going feel the brunt of it. The temple presidents especially because it’s her disciples that are in the temple and things have to go the way she wants because she is the guru. The zonal acharyas of the 80s are kids stuff compared to a woman being guru because the others [zonal acharyas] don’t pull an emotional trip. They feel…they may get emotional but as soon as you point it out, they say, ‘ya ya right’. But you trying doing that on a woman [point out that she is being emotional], its not going to work. It’s only going to create havoc’
‘Point is, if you do have an exception which is on the liberated platform. It’s an expection [Jahnava Mata, Gangamata Goswamini]. That exception, as Vishvanath points out proves the rule. We take- an exception breaks the rule. That is the difference between the vedic and the modern. If you have an exception it breaks the rule. [In] the vedic, if you have an exception it proves the rule because it is only this exception. That shows the rule stands. And the exception is an exception. So, therefore the principle of exception means there is only an exception. You can’t make a general rule- women can’t be gurus. That is against the rules. It is against Krishna, it’s against shastras, it’s against what Prabhupada teaches. And to make it, it is against women because you can imagine how much trouble the men are going to get for this woman guru now imagine what the women are gonna have to go through. That’s gonna be…you’re gonna see riots.
And then, now what’s that woman guru is going to feel when there is a temple where the community doesn’t want her to come. And she’s got this, ‘I was a this and that’. What’s going to happen? You just tell her there is a thing that can’t do something that she wants to do, as an ordinary thing and there is a total meltdown. Let alone something that is seen on this [platform]: You are on the highest position and you can’t do. This is gonna be devastating. And then where is that… and because this is a social issue here. I’ve said from the beginning. It is social from beginning to end. There is nothing spiritual about it. If it is about spiritual and preaching you can do that as a siksha guru. Therefore then, where is that social support for such a guru? Where is that support? Who is giving it? Where is that ideal husband? Where are the ideal families and communities that are going to support a woman on this great of a meltdown? It is hard enough to find someone to support on little day to day issue: You came out and somebody moved your shoes and you freaked out. Let alone, like this: Someone removed your disciples or doesn’t want you coming to the temple, doesn’t want you dealing with disciples.
They do that to the men gurus. There are men gurus who are not allowed to go to certain zones because the administrators don’t appreciate how they deal with. And they’ve had……..melt downs. And those are men. And those are tough men. I’m not talking about weak men. I’m talking about tough men. And so now what’s gonna happen to the woman? Because her whole sense of ownership has been questioned. And that [this sense of ownership] is the point of strength of a woman. That’s why you have to tell her that you love her a million times, right? But she is not going to tell thet man that because he is the one who has to figure that out? So every body is gonna have to constantly telling her how great she is. So, I mean, whose business is that? That is a husband’s business. That is the family’s business, father’s business, son’s business, you know, close friend’s, well wisher’s business. Not everybody [who is] general’s business because diksha guru is a formal position. So it is a formal relationship. So that formality doesn’t warrant this.
So this is a total lack of understanding of the masculine and feminine principles which is shown in the 3rd Canto. And everybody is here talking like Caitanya Caritamrita or something. This is the 3rd Canto. Social issues…Can’t even figure out varnaashrama. So if you can’t figure out varnaashrama so ‘position of women in varnaashrama’ is a detail. So how are we going to know that? ‘How communities work?’ All these things are…all those are within. Then you can discuss it…
Discuss it means we can discuss it pleasantly. This other…this kind of thing…you know…we’ve been talking…[for] 5 years so this [FDG issue] goes smoothly. But if you put this into a general environment…you’ve got fireworks after the first two words.
27:40 Like, ladies that I know of that I know of that I would consider are on the level of Guru – then they do their duties very nicely as siksha gurus. They arrange environments that which they can give instruction by it the way that matches their feminine nature. And it’s not that they’re sitting in the, you know, out of the way – they do big programs and everyone – they do programs on their own terms. It’s they’re doing the program and whoever wants to be there comes. Does that make sense? While if you do a formal thing, like I said, the woman is giving a seminar, it’s not official, so then who goes? – Those who wanna be there. So then reciprocation with everybody is very nice. Right? You have official temple class, that everybody is supposed to be there, now whether they like you speaking or not it’s another thing. You know that’s not gonna be very inspiring. Cause the energy may be very low. But if it’s a program, that is her program, and you’re coming to it voluntarily, then it’s gonna be high energy. So it creates a match very nicely. So the point is, the faminine nature is glorious because of the amount of energy it produces. And so that could only be produced if the environment is proper. You know what I’m saying? The man’s neutral, so whether it’s nice or not nice, it goes up a little bit or down a little bit; buf for the woman it’s nice – then it goes up incredibly, if it’s bad – it goes down incredibly. So it’s not going to work nicely. So that’s the whole point is understanding where each nature has it’s strenghts and then everybody’s place in that position. You know, it works really nice. So that’s why I said
fully supports heretic doctrine – Female Diksha Guru
Has a single young girl for his travelling private assistant
as usual we are very sorry for this poor child whose name comes up in all this, RSD is to blame and not her. He is the senior man there and he should be following vedic culture. What can we expect for a new devotee girl? She’ll follow her leader, who is a feminist!
Sara Adams aka Sraddha Dasi Ravindra Svarupa Das secretary
Patita Pavana Das Prabhu (ACBSP) wrote in a comment on the video, “Can she become guru?” posted on his “Mithuna Twins Astrological Services” conference on Facebook, the following ========= “words of wisdom”:============
“Even though personally I am in favor of the most liberal points of view as taught by Shrila Prabhupada-as well as the conservative ones-, I would have to say that this rebuttal sticks to the parampara in a much more sound fashion than the crass mental speculations, concoctions, inventions, Valley Girl confabulations, and wholly Westernized misguided concepts that the film “She Can Become Guru” pretends to portray.
To say that the public is “turned off” by ISKCON because the Society does not have female gurus is the worst example of a sentimental and deluded mentality.
Our job is to draw a line and ask which side are they on? We do not care for compromising with dog-like men.
And when do we as independent brahmanas rely on professors at the slaughterhouse universities–even perhaps they may have written a book or two that is sort of scholarly on the subject of India–to dictate ISKCON policies?
If these arguments are to be presented, they they should be presented logically and not churned out of the mode of somnambulism to satisfy confused college students. Rather the students must come to Krishna’s standard — not that we are obligated due to societal pressures to fall to their standards.
And neither should the GBC be attacked as Kalakanta has done simply because they are not willing to agree as a body with him.
The whole film “She Can Become Guru” right from the title smacks of Krishna West, which is a sheer fad imitation of Krishna consciousness and nothing more than that..
My message to the makers of “She Can Become Guru” is that you should re-think your strategies if you are to offer logical arguments and not take a chain saw to your own two feet which is what “She Can Become Guru” has done for your cause.
You are not arguing qualification. You are arguing gender and that is 180 degrees in opposition to the very basic tenets of Krishna consciousness. In fact it is diametrically opposed to any logic your arguments try to portray;
And what has a man cooking got to do with a woman becoming a guru? What fool makes up this crap?”